DEBSOC Election Debate

This is not a word for word transcription of the event, nor is it an analysis from PPC. These are the overall points discussed, in the words of mostly the MPs and partly of our PPC content contributors to fill in the gaps of transcription. Our contributors have attempted to give each candidate equal and unbiased coverage. The colours allocated to each candidate are indicative of their respective political party. Over the course of the debate, issues and topics were raised by host Patrick Gower.

An Election Quick Sell: Why Should You Vote for their Parties?

Chris Bishop:

Democracy belongs to those who show up. Three reasons to vote for the National Party:

• Stable leadership at a time of global uncertainty.

• A stronger economy.

• A government that is trying to tackle the hard issues. For example, the gap between Maori, Pasifika and Pakeha in schools and universities.

Chris Hipkins:

Don’t vote based on what’s in it for you. Vote based on what the parties are going to deliver for the country. It’s not good enough that people live in cars, that there is a generation of New Zealanders shut out of the housing market, that there’s a generation of New Zealanders saddled with debt, that people in the health system struggle to get seen by doctors. It should be about what’s in it for all of us.

David Seymour:

• ACT is a socially liberal and economically conservative political party.

• By delaying the raising of the Superannuation threshold by twenty years, until every single baby boomer has retired, the government is going to tax millennials 58 billion dollars more than it would have otherwise. ACT is a party that cares about taxpayers, especially those that are going to have to pay the most tax going forward.

Marama Fox:

• Correcting the injustices faced by Maori adds value to New Zealand.

• If we continue to do things that ensure disparity, we are not moving forward.

Hone Harawira:

• Notes that he had to deal with this brawl.

• Our greatness is only in our willingness and our ability to do great things ourselves; Harawira says this to emphasise that everyone needs to pitch in, in order to create a better future.

James Shaw:

Voting for Greens would ensure:

• A better deal for young people and for students

• A better deal for the future, economy and society: We are off track to holding global warming to under two degrees. However, there are growing economies in the sectors of agriculture, energy and transport. If we don’t capitalize on these, we’ll miss out on the biggest economic opportunities in at least a generation.

• A better deal for democracy

Fletcher Tabuteau:

The New Zealand first party would put New Zealand first, and New Zealanders first, whether you were born here, or whether you arrived yesterday. They are a populist party because they listen to people and believe in a binding referendum system.

Donald Trump - Do They Support Him? How Would They Work With Him?

​​Fletcher Tabuteau:

• Any New Zealand government would have to work with Donald Trump and NZ First supports the President of the United States.

• Winston Peters’ predicted Trump’s win a week before the election. He knew that Trump would win because of the disaffected middle class in the rust belt, who are disadvantaged by globalisation.

​​James Shaw:

• No. The Green Party were the only party that did not vote for the resolution to congratulate Donald Trump, because the Green Party does not support misogyny and racism.

• The United States is bigger than Donald Trump, so it is still possible to work with them. Further, Donald Trump is coming right up against the constitution so he may not succeed as President.

​​Hone Harawira:

• At some point, we have to act on principle, and the principle is that we should never allow ourselves to be seen to be accommodating Nazi bastards.

• People have to stand up for something, people have to believe in the right to be free. The people of America will never be free under Donald Trump, and the people of this country deserve to be free of that kind of slavery.

​​Marama Fox:

• Donald Trump traded on the politics of xenophobia.

• We need to stand up for ourselves. One of the proudest days of our history - for Marama personally - were when we stood up to the United States and declared that we would not allow nuclear powered vessels into our waters.

• We have to stand up for something, but that does not mean we cannot work with them and tell them face to face. We can retain an independent voice.

​​David Seymour:

• Many of the things Donald Trump says are totally antithetical to what Seymour believes. Trump's economics are wrong. His plan to put up trade barriers has the potential to plunge the world into a global recession.

• We have to respect the fact that the American people did vote for him, and we have to work with them… and the way to do that is a mature, principled way. Hopefully it’s only going to be four years, or if he is impeached, maybe less than that.

​​Chris Hipkins:

• For everybody who voted for Donald Trump there’s at least one other person who didn’t vote for him and voted for somebody else.

• Within their congress there are people there who share New Zealand's values and we can work with them.

​​Chris Bishop:

• You can hate misogyny and you can hate racism… but still respect the fact that he won. When you’re a government of 4.5 million people at the bottom of the world, that has its future beholden to the future of the global economy, you have to be a responsible player in the global stage.

National - Doesn't Bill English Seem A Little Boring?

​​Chris Bishop:

• Bill has different skills and different experiences to John Key, and he has a different interest in policy matters.

• In a time of Trump and global economic uncertainty, I reckon New Zealanders are going to back a little boring.

Labour - Why Is Andrew Little Labour's Leader And Not Jacinda Ardern?

​​Chris Hipkins:

• Andrew Little won the most votes and he got to be leader of the Labour Party.

• He’s devoted his entire working life to battling for the underdog. Unlike Bill English, he doesn’t go around the country saying young New Zealanders are lazy, drug addled and hopeless.

ACT - Why Can't ACT Get Any More MPs?

​​David Seymour:

• Our goal is to elect some more this election. The fact of the matter is, we have an MMP system. 1.3% for ACT is two MPs. 2.1% is three, 2.8% is four, 3.5% is 5, you guys can all do the math.

• In my defence, I got elected after knocking on 13 000 people's doors. And we talk about democracy and the survivability of it, I still do that every weekend, I think it's important to get out and talk to the people.

Maori Party - The Maori Party Has Voted Against The Government That You’re A Part of, Why Do You Keep Propping Up National?

​​Marama Fox:

• Don’t believe that we are going to lock ourselves to any party.

• It’s about a vote in favour of ourselves… it’s about ensuring the treaty really is the basis and the foundation of this country.

• When we vote against things it’s so that we can have equitable outcomes.

• Everybody in Parliament goes there because they want to make this country better. They didn’t have to invite us to be at government but they invited us into government because they saw there was value added in having an independent Maori voice.

Mana Party - You're Out of Parliament At The Moment, How Are You Going To Improve Things To Get Back In?

​​Hone Harawira

• I'm standing for mana because there's no mana in Parliament at the moment. And Parliament needs mana back in the house. There’s nobody in the house that’s going to stand up and fight for the issues that we know, of the poor and the dispossessed, like mana has in the past, like mana will in the future.

Green Party - If As Leader You Get A Good Government, How Are You Going To Work With Winston Peters?

​​James Shaw:

There’s no reason why we can’t have a proper MMP government. If you look at Europe most of their governments are quite fond of MMP parties, most of which are quite finely balanced, and they have strong disagreements, and the whole point of the system is that when you’ve got those disagreements, you sit down and work through them.

New Zealand First - Imagine A World Without Winston; Would NZ First Exist?

​​Fletcher Tabuteau - Imagine a world without Winston; would NZ First exist?

• Why talk about a hypothetical future because Winston is here now.

• He stands up and he’s been consistent on the message.

• Marama Fox interjection: Winston Peters is the consummate politician. He stands up in front of any crowd and tells them exactly what they want to hear.

Cannabis - Legalise? Decriminalise?

​​Chris Bishop:

• My personal stance is I’d like to see it dealt with more as a health matter rather than a criminal matter

​​Chris Hipkins:

• I support decriminalisation. The law does need to be reformed, we do need to see it through the lens of a health issue.

​​David Seymour:

• Decriminalisation is the worst of all worlds, it means you’ve got a legal demand side, but still a criminal supply side, which is the worst part of the problem.

• ACT would support legalisation as soon as there’s political support for it.

​​Marama Fox:

• P is one of the biggest epidemics in this country right now, and we continue to do nothing about it. I’m willing for the first time ever to at least have the conversation about decriminalisation. The Maori Party agree with medicinal marijuana.

​​Hone Harawira:

• Mana has a policy of supporting medical marijuana.

• The reason why we support [decriminalisation], is because of our young kids, Maori kids, they get busted, and they think oh it’s a drugs charge no big deal, five years later they want to improve themselves…perhaps go overseas… they find that can’t do that.

​​James Shaw:

• We agree with the ACT Party.

• We have had a 30 year campaign… a sustained public health campaign [for cigarettes]… so if you look at the evidence, if you want to treat this through the lens of harm reduction… then you have to say that a regulated market hold is probably the best.

​​Fletcher Tabuteau:

• We have waited too long as a country to legalise medical marijuana.

• As for the legalisation marijuana in other circumstances, NZ First believes in a binding referendum.

Legalise Euthanasia, Yes or No?

​​​Fletcher Tabuteau:

• I support a binding referendum on it.

​​James Shaw:

• I do, depending on the circumstances.

• The Green Party has a policy on that.

​​Marama Fox:

• I’ve sat next to the dying many times. Aunties, uncles, all earlier than they should have. None of them ever asked to go earlier.

• Jimmy Shaw interjects: You’ve got to define what you’re talking about - when you are terminally ill.

​​David Seymour:

• I’m the only member of Parliament, who’s got a Bill in the Ballot that I’ve drafted, that would allow a NZ Citizen or Permanent Resident over the age of 18, who’s been diagnosed by two doctors to be terminal to 12 months or have an advanced stage of decline, to be able to go through a series of processes where with proper consent, they can choose how they go and when they go on their terms, rather than either committing suicide… or having the doctor surreptitiously do it for them, which research will show is also a reality.

• It’s not that I support Euthanasia, I support people having a choice. All people in this room have their own spiritual outlook… doesn’t mean that you have to agree, it just means that you have to accept other people having a choice.

​​Chris Hipkins:

• I would support a bill depending on how it was drafted.

• I do want to say something and it’s a personal thing; I lived next door to four people who were a little bit older than me, all four of the kids in that family suffer from a degenerative condition. One of them has already died, one of them lives in a darkened room where she cannot speak for herself, she cannot feed herself, she cannot talk, she cannot communicate, she has to have someone go in every day to turn her over. It is inhumane. Her older sister, who is less advanced in the condition than her came to see me and talk about t and she said, now I’m in a position where I have control of my destiny. I could take my own life now. At some point, I’m going to end up like my sister, and then I will have no choice… that is wrong.

​​Chris Bishop:

• Then I met the same woman that Chris has met. She came to see me. The person concerned is in a room, she communicates essentially through blinking, and it’s all of what everyone in this room would never like to be. It makes you cry when you see and all to the family members. And the family members know that that’s coming to them at some point.

• We’ve gotta get the law right. We’ve gotta make sure the drafting is correct. But actually we’re way behind the rest of the world. Oregan… various states around the world show that you can have a carefully drafted law, that protects those not mentally competent, protects the young, but allows people to die with dignity.

The Economy: Super-Annuation

National - Why is the government waiting to put the retirement age up, until after all of the baby boomers have retired at 65?

​​Chris Bishop:

• These guys don’t get screwed. One of the reasons why the government is acting to raise the super age is so that you face a bill that is affordable. I reject the proposition that we are screwing this generation.

• At the moment, there’s four workers for everyone aged over 65, in 20 years time, there’ll be two. We’ve got to deal with it and this is the way to do it.

Labour - How could you go out there, campaign and fight, then you flip flop and you’re criticising this guy[Bishop] for doing it?

​​Chris Hipkins:

• The people who are in the lowest income, are the people who will be most disadvantaged. They typically, they do physically demanding work. They get to the age of 65 and they’re buggered. Under this policy, they probably wouldn’t retire at all and that’s not fair.

ACT - Can you explain why National has not chosen to affect the baby boomers with this?

​​David Seymour:

• Oh it’s very simple, very simple, I represent the Epsom electorate. There are 5000 over 65s and 90% of them vote. That’s 4500 votes. There are 7000 18 - 24 and if you’re lucky 60% get up and vote. So even though there’s 2000 more of you, there’s actually 500 less votes to think about. That’s the calculation that political parties have been making when they have denied the economic reality, when they’ve thrown the treasury’s long term fiscal outlooks in the bin so often I wonder why we keep funding them. Now the question is, how many people are going to get out and vote and for parties that are prepared to confront that question head on. Well actually it’s one simple question; how many of you are going to vote for ACT?

​​Marama Fox

• Not everybody gets the same, because actually life expectancy in this country for target groups of people is different. If you’re the average Maori male, you are not making it, because your life expectancy is 66 years old, it used to be a ten year gap, in fact when I was younger it used to be a 13 year gap.

• We believe there needs to be a flexible plan. If there are different groups of people who for whatever reason don’t have the same equitable outcome, then let’s have a flexi super plan. So if you wanted to take it at 60 but for a reduced amount, you can, if you want to take it at 70 for a higher amount, you could.

• [Will the Maori Party vote against National’s policy] - On the current policy yes we would.

​​Hone Harawira does a demonstration of how many Maori men do actually receive the pension by dividing the room into segments of the people who get superannuation and people who don’t. Most of the Maori men don’t receive it (about 75% of the room). The same amount of Maori women receive it for only one year. “That’s the reality of the people I have to serve.”

Green Party - Your policy is basically the same as Winston’s.

​​James Shaw:

• What the kaupapa Maori parties are saying about this perfectly exhibits why you shouldn’t mess with superannuation without a cross party parliamentary consensus on it. One of my main objections was a single party dropping it in as a bombshell without having talked to any of the other parties, without having tried to build a consensus, whether those issues have to do with Maori or young people… and I think if we’re going to change superannuation, you’ve got to build that consensus first, that is actually more important than what my party's policy is.

• [After some interjections, Patrick Gower takes over and says] - James in your heart of hearts do you not believe that the age should go up: You’re asking the wrong question because the question should be about the affordability of the system. The superfund has been underfunded for the last eight years. If you wanted to deal with the demographic bubble of the baby boomers, you would use the surpluses that are about to start coming, to fund the superannuation.

New Zealand First - Can you explain to this audience how it's fair that a millionaire who is still working, gets to have a free ferry ride over Waiheke?

​​Fletcher Tabuteau:

• That guy has been paying taxes all of his life, and if he’s a millionaire he’s probably been paying more than anyone else.

Housing - What Is An Example Of Party Policy That Will Lower The Rent Prices?

​​Chris Bishop:

• Rents are high in Auckland and they’ve gone up in Wellington… all of this is a symptom of a failed market… it’s basically broken. It’s broken for lots of different reasons,. One of the biggest reasons is we’ve made it basically very difficult for council’s to free up land, and to supply the infrastructure that goes on that land.

• I don’t have a magic wand that I can wave and say that if you vote National it’ll bring your rents down ten dollars a week next year. I cannot promise anyone here that rents will go down in the next two years or three years.

​​Chris Hipkins:

• When you don’t have enough the houses you build more houses, and we’re not building enough houses. We’ve made a commitment to build 10 000 more houses every year for ten years.

• We also want to crack down on foreign speculators… one in seven houses sold in Auckland today is going to speculators offshore.

• So it’s not just one answer, it’s got to be a whole variety of things.

• I can’t guarantee that rents will go down.

​​David Seymour:

• The fact of the matter is that there are more people than there are houses…

• It’s actually going to take several years to build our way out of this problem, and it’s actually going to take a couple of decades for incomes to catch up.

​​Marama Fox:

• I don’t think it’s in the too hard basket. I’ve been up here with the homeless inquiry… I’ve been to every housing development and social housing development in this city. Here’s the problem, Auckland City Council have done nothing to open up and grow the land. A developer has to put in the power, water, earthworks, roading, footpaths and everything. It’s fiscally irresponsible for the developers to build low cost housing.

• Maori party policy is that we will never sell land to foreigners that don’t live here.

​​Hone Harawira:

• The housing crisis is simple to resolve. So here’s what you do. If it’s true that we’re getting 26 000 immigrants coming to Auckland. Guaranteed 20 000 of them are buying existing homes. So the first thing you do is say, well if you’re gonna come, ka pai, you guys pay to build a new one. Because what happens is you’re providing jobs for builders, carpenter, glaziers, roofers. You’re creating jobs, and you’re getting 20 000 houses that are not being sold off in the Auckland market.

• Because these governments allow speculation, you got a whole heap of people owning houses in Auckland who have no intention of living here or doing them up. They’re just going to take the money. So you put a limit on how money houses these speculators have. I guarantee there’s another 20 000 houses put on the market, simply by taxing these houses in a way that they are forced to put their houses back on the market.

• All it takes is the courage of the people who assume to lead this country. This is not an attack on foreigners. This is about providing houses for New Zealand citizens first.

​​James Shaw

• One of the foremost commitments that I’ve got in politics is because I believe that if we don’t try and be civil in politics then we’re doomed. We are in a housing crisis and the consequences of that are being felt by students, old people, middle class rich white kids as well and so it’s times like that when you need to breathe through your nose

• In the short term, the accommodation allowance for students hasn’t budged since 2004, and yes it is going to take quite a long time for us to fix the crisis, but the fastest thing that we could do for students is to remove that cap.

​​Fletcher Tabuteau

• It doesn't matter what race the foreign speculators are. They are buying Kiwi homes, turning them into investment homes that are giving them 100% returns - emphasises the unacceptability of this.

Is There Anything You Can Do To Make Student Life Easier?

​​Chris Bishop:

• Currently focusing on getting a public transport discount for Wellington students. This is already available for students in Auckland.

​​Chris Hipkins:

• Three years of free post school education.

​​David Seymour

• Thinks that interest should be put back on student loans. The fact of the matter is, if anyone in this room really thinks that the best use of 400 million dollars a year is to write off interest on the most privileged group in New Zealand society... [trails off]

​​Marama Fox

• We’ve supported 6000 scholarships, rolled out already right now, 200 scholarships for first in whanau [first person in family to attend university]. Raise threshold for loan repayments. Universal student allowance.

​​Hone Harawira

• It’s kind of difficult to expect all of you to pay for an education that all of us got for free. How do we encourage your generation to want to believe in the future of this country, if we’re charging you for that future.

​​James Shaw:

1. Student green card; free public transport off peak.

2. Warrant of Fitness on rental properties.

3. It is kind of crazy that the first job that you’ve got, that your repayment on your loan kicks in at quite a high rate, so we would bring in a progressive rate of repayment.

​​Fletcher Tabetau:

• NZ First has tried for the last seven years to turn student money debt into student skill debt. Work for your country and pay it off in our regions, in our hospitals.